What should happen to red-light cams
14 March 2007, 10:00 AM MDT
Read more about D'Val Westphal
Read more about Dan McKay
Transcript
Jenna:
Are the "photo blocking" plate covers, sprays, etc. legal? And do they work?
Dan McKay:
dan -- Police say the covers and sprays are either illegal or don't work. Anything that's obstructs the view of your plate is illegal. The "smoke" covers and the "prism" covers, for example, are prohibited. The products available largely don't work -- and if they did, they'd be illegal, according to the Police Department.
d'val -- apd says the sprays actually make your plate shiny and clear. if you get caught with a cover, it's a $300 fine for obstructing your plate.
d'val -- apd says the sprays actually make your plate shiny and clear. if you get caught with a cover, it's a $300 fine for obstructing your plate.
William L. Izor:
If serious accidents are down at red light covered intersections, whats the rate of increase at none red light intersections, has that record been kept. Remember any facts are controlled by the answers wanted.
If Red Light Cameras can't stop an accident, why do they still happen?
If Red Light Cameras can't stop an accident, why do they still happen?
D'Val Westphal:
apd hasn't said that wrecks are up at other intersections -- it's not really an inverse deal where if they're down at one they have to go up at the other.
but violations and wrecks are down. apd estimates a 40-60 percent reduction. at san mateo and montgomery, for example, there were 1,402 red-light runners during a 30-day period in 2004. That dropped to 694 in 2005. Rear-end wrecks are down, too -- 74 in 2005, an estimated 57 in 2006.
and wrecks happen for many reasons beyond running a red light.
but violations and wrecks are down. apd estimates a 40-60 percent reduction. at san mateo and montgomery, for example, there were 1,402 red-light runners during a 30-day period in 2004. That dropped to 694 in 2005. Rear-end wrecks are down, too -- 74 in 2005, an estimated 57 in 2006.
and wrecks happen for many reasons beyond running a red light.
John:
Have the cameras had a measurable effect on accident rates at the intersections where they're in use?
D'Val Westphal:
yes. apd says from a 40-60 percent reduction. at eubank and montgomery, for example, there were 30 rear-end wrecks in 2004, 27 in 2005, and an estimated 20 in 2006.
Dan Otter:
Please explain to me the downside of red light cameras? Here's what I see: safer streets, police resources shifted, and a gradual change in the general brazen regard for traffic laws in this city.
Dan McKay:
A lot of people, frankly, are upset about the lights. Some object philosophically to the idea of the cameras, saying it has "Big Brother" overtones and lacks the personal touch of letting you talk to the officer who cites you.
Others say that when they contest the fine, they want to be able to go in front of a judge, like they would for a regular traffic ticket. The camera system, however, does involve administrative hearings in which you can argue that the fine is unjustified.
The size of the fines is also an issue for some people. City Councilor Ken Sanchez, in fact, wants to lower the fines. Council President Debbie O'Malley has also proposed legislation that would alter the fine structure in some way, though I'm not familiar with the details.
Others say that when they contest the fine, they want to be able to go in front of a judge, like they would for a regular traffic ticket. The camera system, however, does involve administrative hearings in which you can argue that the fine is unjustified.
The size of the fines is also an issue for some people. City Councilor Ken Sanchez, in fact, wants to lower the fines. Council President Debbie O'Malley has also proposed legislation that would alter the fine structure in some way, though I'm not familiar with the details.
Andrew Griego:
Why aren't all directions covered by these cameras? If you are traveling west on Montgomery you can run the light, there is no camera looking westbound or southbound on San Mateo. This seems to be the case at other intersections.
D'Val Westphal:
apd says they get a "residual effect" when they cover just one or two directions. drivers know the intersection is covered, but they may not know which direction, or it becomes a case of follow the leader -- other drivers are obeying the law, so they do, too.
the thing is, the cameras run $15,000 to $30,000 for each approach, i.e. each direction. and apd bases the directions that get the cameras on the number of violations, wrecks, officer and citizen complaints.
the thing is, the cameras run $15,000 to $30,000 for each approach, i.e. each direction. and apd bases the directions that get the cameras on the number of violations, wrecks, officer and citizen complaints.
Paul:
Are the police taking notice of all the people who have tried to remove the threat of getting a ticket from red light cameras by brazenly removing their cars' license plates? I've seen many autos running the gamut of brand new to junkers with no license plate and no temporary tag. Seems that this is the new "loophole" for these people. Are the police going to do anything about it? Surely they've seen them around.
D'Val Westphal:
man, this is a new one. it's illegal to drive without a plate, so we're back to the old-fashioned police enforcement of having an officer see the violation and then cite for it.
that's what's great about the cameras -- they work 24-7 and free up 96 officers (2 an intersection, three shifts a day, 16 camera-ized intersections) to do other police work.
that's what's great about the cameras -- they work 24-7 and free up 96 officers (2 an intersection, three shifts a day, 16 camera-ized intersections) to do other police work.
David:
I have two questions. One, where is the over site? Who's to say the mayor doesn't run a red light or speed through an intersection (I've followed him many times to cover news conferences, and he roars down the road)? We are trusting his contractor Redflex to do selection of violators. Also, since this is civil, it's unenforceable. According to a recent district court ruling, they have no recourse against you. Despite what they say about taking your vehicle, they can only do so through district court where criminal proceeding would have to take place thus voiding the civil law.
D'Val Westphal:
if you take the citation all the way out, the oversight is that apd reviews it, then redflex reviews it, then the driver reviews it, then a cop reviews it, then a hearing officer reviews it, then a judge reviews it.
sure, it's possible that the mayor has all of his citations torn up. but it's not likely. there's a huge computer/paper trail. that's why more than 30 apd cops have been cited and paid the fine. (p.s. internal affairs immediately gets a copy of the violation.)
and the fines are being enforced -- if you don't appeal/pay, the city doubles your fine and sics a collection agency on you.
sure, it's possible that the mayor has all of his citations torn up. but it's not likely. there's a huge computer/paper trail. that's why more than 30 apd cops have been cited and paid the fine. (p.s. internal affairs immediately gets a copy of the violation.)
and the fines are being enforced -- if you don't appeal/pay, the city doubles your fine and sics a collection agency on you.
Andrew Griego:
What happens to people who get these citations and just ignore them?
Dan McKay:
People who get a violation notice have 20 days to respond. If you don't pay the fine or request a hearing, you are in default and faces additional penalties of "twice the amount of the underlying fine," according to the city ordinance.
If the default penalty isn't paid, police may seize your vehicle. That doesn't really happen, though, as police aren't taking people's vehicles for these violations. Instead, they try to work something out with the violator.
Some people owe thousands of dollars for repeated violations.
If the default penalty isn't paid, police may seize your vehicle. That doesn't really happen, though, as police aren't taking people's vehicles for these violations. Instead, they try to work something out with the violator.
Some people owe thousands of dollars for repeated violations.
Max Power:
Say you run a red light, the camera catches you and you're mailed a ticket. At the same time, a police officer sees you, stops you and gives you a ticket for the same infraction. Can you be ticketed for the same violation twice? Is that not double jeopardy, which would be a violation of the U.S. Constitution? Or is it different because one case is civil and one is not?
D'Val Westphal:
i haven't heard of this happening, but it's a possibility. the cameras work 24-7, though, and with them covering the speeding/red-light infractions at specific sites, i would guess that apd has their traffic officers deployed to other sites.
but say it happened. i would suggest you appeal the civil fine and show the criminal citation to the hearing officer -- or vice versa. actually, i'd take the civil fine, becasue it wouldn't go against my license or insurance.
but say it happened. i would suggest you appeal the civil fine and show the criminal citation to the hearing officer -- or vice versa. actually, i'd take the civil fine, becasue it wouldn't go against my license or insurance.
Max Power:
Not that they did before, which is why we might need the cameras, but do police traffic patrol officers now bother patrolling areas with red light cameras?
D'Val Westphal:
i don't know for sure, but as i said in another answer, i'm betting they patrol them but focus on things other than speed and red lights, since the cameras have that covered. apd, like any organization, has limited resources. but officers are definitely writing criminal citations: in 2005, apd wrote 185,960 tickets; in 2006, 215,180.
Richard Buckler:
What could be a practical answer to the perception that the fines are too high? Why doesn't the program have a "reset" for good behavior (say 1 year of no violations), once a driver/car reaches the higher fine levels?
D'Val Westphal:
that "reset" is a great suggestion, and as officails continue to look at tweaking the program i bet it will come uop (it should!)
but the argument that the fines are too high is blown away by the fact that $100 bucks gets your attention -- the attention of 79,451 drivers as of jan. 29. apd says it works because very few people run a red or speed on camera a second (1,672) or third-plus time (94). and the city attorney says they have 90-percent compliance -- people know they've done wrong, take their medicine and learn from it.
but the argument that the fines are too high is blown away by the fact that $100 bucks gets your attention -- the attention of 79,451 drivers as of jan. 29. apd says it works because very few people run a red or speed on camera a second (1,672) or third-plus time (94). and the city attorney says they have 90-percent compliance -- people know they've done wrong, take their medicine and learn from it.
soccergirl:
Are the cameras currently active? I heard rumors that they've been turned off till the State vs. City fundage thing gets sorted out.
D'Val Westphal:
i wouldn't test that rumor. there are 16 intersections up and flashing -- eubank and montgomery went live on monday.
Stephanie Shirey:
I nearly lost half my family last Saturday to a red light runner. When the "runner" is sitting just inches from my side window, and has completely scared my kids amd myself to death, what recourse do I have? The amount of the fine is not enough!
D'Val Westphal:
any time you face road rage, you should dial 911 and report it immediately -- give as much info on the make/model/plate number/direction of travel, etc. (using a hands-free device or while the vehicle is not in motion, of course).
Max Power:
Explain again what triggers a driver getting a ticket: Is it when you enter the intersection after the light turns red or if you are in the intersection when the light turns red?
D'Val Westphal:
there are two magnetic strips in the pavement just past the white stop bar. when your vehicle's front tires pass over them, they do a time-distance calculation.
if you go over them on green or yellow at the posted speed, the camera isn't triggered and you are not cited. if you go over on red or several miles over the posted speed limit (think a number just below 10), the camera is triggered and you get a redflex love letter in the mail in about 14 days.
if you go over them on green or yellow at the posted speed, the camera isn't triggered and you are not cited. if you go over on red or several miles over the posted speed limit (think a number just below 10), the camera is triggered and you get a redflex love letter in the mail in about 14 days.
Eric D. Jones Jr.:
Why don't we just install government cameras in every room of our homes, every vehicle we drive, RFID tracking devices under our skin, and brain scans monitoring our thoughts?
D'Val Westphal:
if you drive a two-ton killing machine there and put me or my family at risk in your bedroom, then by all means, it's time for a camera in your home.
the cameras are clearly visible, placed in public areas, in the same spots where a traditional cruiser would be parked. there is nothing big brother about them -- nothing more than giving someone a badge and a gun and asking them to keep our streets safe.
the cameras are clearly visible, placed in public areas, in the same spots where a traditional cruiser would be parked. there is nothing big brother about them -- nothing more than giving someone a badge and a gun and asking them to keep our streets safe.
Dan McKay:
Well, that general issue is certainly something the council is looking at. Two councilors, Debbie O'Malley, and Ken Sanchez, are looking at revising the program, and Brad Winter has been seeking out opponents to hear their side.
How much is too much enforcement? I'm not sure there is a right answer. Councilors and state lawmakers are certainly wrestling with that.
On the other hand, supporters of the ordinance say your vehicle isn't caught on camera unless you violate the law.
How much is too much enforcement? I'm not sure there is a right answer. Councilors and state lawmakers are certainly wrestling with that.
On the other hand, supporters of the ordinance say your vehicle isn't caught on camera unless you violate the law.
David:
Have you been to a hearing? They are a mess. My brother in law is being dragged down there on a citation that wasn't even valid. He was told by the city and redflex it was a mistake but he still has to go. How is that right? What about his time wasted?
D'Val Westphal:
that is such a drag. but can anyone really say people have never been dragged into court on a bogus criminal citation? this is still a relatively young system, and the city is working out the bugs. they have contracted with several more hearing officers and plan to hire more to help the process work more smoothly. the bottom line is, if it's not a valid citation, it will be dismissed, and a lot of other lives/vehicles were saved because people drove safer.
Ron Amberg:
Why can't they set the green left hand arrows a bit longer and also the yellow?
I beleive that is where most of the tickets are issued. When there is a backup of 7 or 8 cars they cannot all clear the turn. Then they have to wait another cycle and waste gas. What is the big hurry with the lights anyway? I would be curious to know how many tickets are issued for the left hand turns.
D'Val Westphal:
i am working with the city on the timing on the yellows -- it's my understanding that the time is mandated by the feds based on the number of lanes, speed limit, site distance, etc.
and i will check on left turns, but i'm with you. i have seen as many as 12 cars turn on a red because the drivers were sick of waiting and sick of obeying the law.
and i will check on left turns, but i'm with you. i have seen as many as 12 cars turn on a red because the drivers were sick of waiting and sick of obeying the law.
Amy:
I noticed a red light camera at Montano/Coors. It is facing eastbound Montano, which just happens to be at the bottom of a very steep hill. Even if one is trying not to speed there, sheer momentum will cause one's vehicle to accelerate. I noticed I have to brak all the way down the hill to avoid going too fast. This seems like a clever little trick, and quite unfair. It;s like they have an automatic "BINGO!" happening.
D'Val Westphal:
what can i say beyond it's the speed limit and a red light. the intersection is number 18 on the state list for most wrecks in the state. plus, montano really slows down on the other side of the intersection, so drivers should be going the speed limit/braking before they get across.
David:
This whole mess would be fixed if the city would target the DRIVER!!! To many innocent people are being punished because they are the registered owner. In fact, that's the only way this ordinance can operate; by deeming the VEHICLE a public nuisance. The city is being lazy with this regard. They do it in California and other places where there is a picture taken of the vehicle and driver.
Dan McKay:
Taking a picture of the driver, I think, would make opponents even more uncomfortable about the government watching over them. The city ordinance does allow people accused of a violation to "nominate" the person who was driving, if it's not the registered owner of the vehicle. The city then sends a violation notice to the driver.
D'Val Westphal:
the city attorney says this isn't re-inventing the wheel and vehicles are targeted in other instances -- parking violations target the owner, not the parker, for example.
and if you have the bad luck/judgment to lend you car to a dangerous driver, then you drag them to the hearing and they take the citation.
and if you have the bad luck/judgment to lend you car to a dangerous driver, then you drag them to the hearing and they take the citation.
Stephanie Shirey:
I'm sorry I guess I wasn't clear. The front grill of the truck that ran the red light was inches from my side window when he finally stopped in the middle of the intersection. What recourse do I have when I'm shaken to the point I can't move. I don't think the fine on the red light is enough for the emotional damage it can cause to other drivers.
D'Val Westphal:
call 911. this sounds like a matter that needs an officer to take over, and at that point it becomes a criminal matter that has much greater repercussions than a $100 fine.
Dan McKay:
That sounds like a terrible experience. Indeed, the police have pretty shocking videos of drivers running lights and colliding with pedestrians or other vehicles. I'm not sure, however, that you have any recourse in the context of this particular ordinance.
Paul:
I've got a suggestion that we need in addition to red light and speed cameras:
Tailgating cameras! That should make driving around here safer, too. Just a suggestion.
Tailgating cameras! That should make driving around here safer, too. Just a suggestion.
D'Val Westphal:
actually, tailgaiting seems to be down, with rear-end accidents dropping at the camera-ized intersections:
eubank and montgomery -- 30 in 2004, 27 in 2005, an estimated 20 in 2006.
san mateo and montgomery -- 74 in 2005, 57 in 2006.
eubank and montgomery -- 30 in 2004, 27 in 2005, an estimated 20 in 2006.
san mateo and montgomery -- 74 in 2005, 57 in 2006.
Dan McKay:
I'd be thrilled if we could just get drivers to use turn signals. Baby steps, people. Baby steps.
Andrew Griego:
Do company vehicles get the higher fines when they are caught. For example, if one of your fleet vehicles runs a light on Monday, and a different company vehicle runs a different light on Friday, does the company get nailed with the second higher fine? This would seem unfair.
D'Val Westphal:
it's my understanding that the citations are tied to the plate number first and owner second, so if you own 50 cars, you can run 50 red lights and get 50 $100 fines.
but please don't test that theory.
but please don't test that theory.
David:
D'Val, it seems to me you are a proponent of this STOP Ordinance. As a journalist, aren't you supposed to be objective? Have you received a STOP ordinance violation yet?
D'Val Westphal:
i am an editorial writer and columnist, so after 16 years in journalism i finally get to have an opinion. but i base mine on facts. i am fortunate that i get to talk directly with the officers and city officials who run the program and who pick up the pieces at wreck sites.
i have not gotten a camera citation in the almost two years of the program, and i have to drive through several camera-ized intersections daily. but i do drive much more carefully and and much more aware of my surroundings because of them.
i have not gotten a camera citation in the almost two years of the program, and i have to drive through several camera-ized intersections daily. but i do drive much more carefully and and much more aware of my surroundings because of them.
Dan McKay:
I should probably point out that D'Val and I have different roles at the paper and, in fact, don't even work in the same office or have the same supervisors. Opinions are part of her job.
As for me, I'm a reporter for the City Desk -- the department that covers Albuquerque -- and I have a more traditional "just-the-news" kind of role.
As for me, I'm a reporter for the City Desk -- the department that covers Albuquerque -- and I have a more traditional "just-the-news" kind of role.
David:
Have you dug deep in this issue, or only spew what the city official feed you? Talk to the people. Go to the hearings. I don't have a problem with safe streets, people shouldn't run red lights, they shouldn't speed. I would rather see a cop running radar there instead of a camera. A camera can't tell if it's last red light runner was drunk. He'll get a citation, but not after killing someone else down the road. They create a false sense of security and a nice clean way to generate revenue. A small temporary side effect might be reduction in accidents, which has to be taken at the word of APD. Also, a flash from a camera opposite me almost caused me to crash. They are now a new hazard. You just mentioned old fashion police enforcement. That's what we need.
Dan McKay:
Journal reporters have written quite a bit about the program from the opponents' point of view. The lead police reporter, T.J. Wilham, interviewed and wrote about people who have wracked up heavy fines without even realizing it. He's also covered the crush of people requesting hearings to contest the violations.
I've written about ACLU objections to the ordinance, which resulted in some changes to how it works. We also covered the town-hall meeting sponsored by City Councilor Brad Winter. It drew a somewhat hostile crowd.
Ultimately, voters can decide the issue. If the mayor and City Council aren't representing you well, vote against 'em next time.
I've written about ACLU objections to the ordinance, which resulted in some changes to how it works. We also covered the town-hall meeting sponsored by City Councilor Brad Winter. It drew a somewhat hostile crowd.
Ultimately, voters can decide the issue. If the mayor and City Council aren't representing you well, vote against 'em next time.
D'Val Westphal:
the sad fact is that there are not enough officers to cover every lawbreaker. do you want to pay cops to bust red-light runners or dwis? part of the problem the city faces is how best to deploy their resources.
apd has said what they were doing didn't work -- people still speed through intersections and blew through lights. the camera stats show driver behavior is changing, and that makes the roads safer for everyone.
apd has said what they were doing didn't work -- people still speed through intersections and blew through lights. the camera stats show driver behavior is changing, and that makes the roads safer for everyone.
Max Power:
If you rent a car in Abq and are caught by a red light camera, does the driver have to pay for the ticket or does the rental car company?
D'Val Westphal:
i believe the rental-car company will get the citation and track you down like the dog you are.